Beyond The Code

Maulik Sailor (00:01.604)
Hello Ranjeeva, how are you doing man?

Ranjiva Prasad (00:05.23)
Hey, Maulik, how are you? It's been a while. Good to see you again.

Maulik Sailor (00:09.284)
I know, I know. It's been like almost what, 10 years that I, you know, we worked together at Visa, you know, back then it was an interesting program. I remember working with you. You've been one of the chief architect on the program that we were working with. You know, really amazing to have worked with you. And 10 years is a long time for us to reconnect again. I'm all up to hear more from you on what you have been up to. How do you perceive the tech world has changed?

and where it's heading to. So I'm really looking forward to our chat today. But for us to get insight for our audience, why don't you tell us more about your background? What have you done so far and what are you currently working on?

Ranjiva Prasad (00:57.582)
All right. So I think let's just start from the basics. I'm a builder, right? I'm an engineer. That's, that's who I am. That's, that's who I am. Even in my spare time, I build stuff and, like, like, I don't know, walls, decks, construction, you know, I'm an engineer. I like, I like getting down and understanding so many different types of engineering discipline. I'm an aeronautical engineer by training.

but I'm also a computer, I'm also a software engineer. And lately I've been studying like civil engineering. So I've been doing construction work at home. So I'm a builder. That's how I see myself. So I studied aeronautical engineering, then I studied software engineering, computer science, and then I went into machine learning and joined an innovation center about 25 years ago.

working on machine learning solutions for government clients basically in various areas from fraud detection and other areas. And then, but I was always heavily involved in the software engineering side rather than the algorithm side and kind of ended up in a startup prior to prior to Visa, 11 years at Visa, but prior to Visa in a startup led in

built an engineering team, 35 people. And then there was an opportunity to come and work for Visa that arose. And that's where you and I met on what was then a very exciting program, right? Those were fun days in terms of building out wallets and other digital solutions. And yeah, and then I moved into innovation and here I am.

Maulik Sailor (02:52.132)
Okay, that's wonderful. To be honest, I have not met anybody who is an aeronautical engineer, who is also a software engineer and is also doing civil or construction engineering, right? So you literally could be making, like as you say, your rocket ship, working in a startup, you wanna have that whole exponential growth. You are almost like a rocket maker for a startup.

Would that be fair to describe yourself?

Ranjiva Prasad (03:23.246)
That's why Visa brought me in. That's why Visa brought me in. So you know what was going on at that time. We were building out a whole new set of digital solutions. Visa at that time was owned by our members, right, the banks. That's why I was literally brought in. You've got startup experience. We need to change things. And that's why innovation is actually the natural home for me in an organization such as Visa because, you know,

Maulik Sailor (03:24.932)
Hahaha!

Ranjiva Prasad (03:52.59)
There's a big component of Visa that works on the operations and making sure that the transactions, you can make a transaction any time of day and it will work. That's Visa. But we in innovation are about, well, what's next? Where do we go next? And that's really a startup. That's really a builder culture.

Maulik Sailor (04:10.916)
Yeah, you know what I remember one thing from my visa days, you know, in our office when you used to come in, you will see like a live transaction counter as you entered the office. And like, you know, by 9 a you will already be seeing like hundreds of millions of transactions done on that particular day, almost in real time. And you will see the counter going up crazy. And for me,

Ranjiva Prasad (04:22.158)
Mm, mm, mm.

Maulik Sailor (04:36.068)
That was like the moment you come in the office and you really see immediately the impact that you're making by the work you are doing and the scale of the work you are doing and any minor change that you do to your software or to your infrastructure, it will immediately have impact across the world. So for me, that was the moment as you walked into the office, the importance of the work that you were doing.

Ranjiva Prasad (05:05.198)
Yeah, so you know, we have a platform that runs at 65, makes 65 ,000 transactions per second. So we have a platform that allows you to pay. You can be anywhere in the world at midnight. I always use this example and you need to get a taxi, right? To wherever you need to go. We will ensure we're in that moment. We will ensure that works. We will ensure that transaction is done so you can get to where you need to go to. In fact,

Maulik Sailor (05:12.612)
Wow.

Ranjiva Prasad (05:34.798)
I'm going to name drop a little bit here. I do like doing this. I once met the CTO, you know, my background in aerospace. I worked on a mission to Mars. And then so I ended up meeting the CTO of NASA. Right. A few years ago, we haven't got time for the whole story, but I met him and I said to him, how do you innovate in a mission critical environment? Right. Because.

I want to know, I want to tell my SVP because you know what, and I talked to everyone on that floor, I said, tonight, all of you are going to rely on us to do what we do to get you home. You are, you just will. We will be in one moment of your journey. We will, we just will be, right? Whether you're buying something, just whatever, just to get you home, you're paying for the tube, whatever it is, we are there. So that's what I said to him. How do you make sure...

you have you innovate and you know what he said is very really simple. You put a team together, a diverse team together. You know, you let them get on with it, but you keep make sure you keep their eye on the ball. That's it. It's just three steps. So that is like, we are mission critical. That is what we do. And you know, when you come into the office, I come into the office, I remember all of that. I go, this is who I'm working for. This is the impact that I can have.

And we have impact at the ecosystem level. So I work at the ecosystem level. I'm here to change the network, right? Not just some software in a data center, but the whole network, which is incredibly challenging, but also incredibly rewarding.

Maulik Sailor (07:19.46)
So just building more on that, when we talk about innovation and some of the news that you've read, you normally mostly hear about end consumer or customer facing innovations, right? But what we don't hear too much about is the backend engineering, the infrastructure layer and all. Without divulging too much about confidential information, are you?

Ranjiva Prasad (07:21.87)
Mmm.

Ranjiva Prasad (07:33.486)
Mm -hmm.

Maulik Sailor (07:47.62)
Are you able to talk about some of the key trends happening in the back -end side?

Ranjiva Prasad (07:53.934)
I, having worked on mission critical backend stuff, less, less so at Visa. So I was, as I said, I'm more on that innovation side on the product side, but obviously we rely on the infrastructure to do what it does. and at the level that I can, I can speak to you about how, how does that happen?

You know, so we talk about this. I always talk about this to my team, right? And so brilliant basics to create magic moments. Doesn't matter. It can be a product. It can be a product feature. What I'm saying is do the basics well. In a previous, in the previous company, we had a rule, right? We put in a new messaging platform. My team did. I had a rule. It was a really simple rule. I went to my CEO. I said to my CEO,

Because each of those transactions was money. I said to him, how much money can I lose like from dropped transactions in a month? You know what he did? He went into his pocket, right? This is going back, I don't know, 15, 16 years ago. People still carried cash in those days, right? He pulled out 30 pence. He said to me, out of the X millions, and you know, I can't divulge that, but you can lose 30 pence.

It worked out to about one in 10 billion transactions. I could only drop one in 10 billion transactions. Right. So how do you do that? Let's go back to what the CTO told me. I build a diverse team. I make sure that pointed in the right direction and I follow up. And what that team did is did the basics most brilliantly.

Strip back, strip back, strip back and really simplify the problem. Really understand what you're trying to solve. It's not about the tools. It's not about, you know, we can talk about containerization. We can talk about so much stuff, right? We can talk about elasticity. We can talk about running things active, active and all the challenges we have. And, you know, when I came into Visa, you know, I talked to everybody, hey, the cat's here and base, all of that stuff, right?

Ranjiva Prasad (10:16.014)
And the challenges we were having in running active active many many many years ago But ultimately it's not you learn as a builder It's not about the technology It's about the process. It's about the people we did we took my last company for I led my last company for an agile transformation and then I asked we got we got specialists in people that Your listeners will know

We got them in and I said, like, what tool should I use? And they said, don't. Use pen and paper. Use a whiteboard. You don't need to use a JIRA. You don't need to use this. You don't need to use any of that stuff. Don't do that. What you do is you figure out as a team how you want to work. Right? And then you bring the tools in to support that. And we did that agile transformation. And we went from my teams were working 70 hours a week. I were in a startup.

It's difficult in the industry, mobile messaging. I was in mobile payments. It's challenging, right? It's a new industry, heavily increasing amounts of regulation. My team is global. By putting those practices in, we went from 70 -hour working weeks to like just normal working weeks. So it's not the technologies, right? The technologies are there. We could talk about all of the things there. I'm personally interested in the whole serverless thing. I love functional.

Programming is kind of my thing, but it's not that. You want to run a system at scale, it's not that. It's your processes, it's your people. It's the controls you put in, right? That then shapes the technology.

Maulik Sailor (11:56.548)
Yeah, you know, it's interesting you're talking of the people and you know, on our platform, Notchup, we built this feature where the team manager or engineering manager can onboard their internal teams and the team member, they have to go through a small onboarding process for us to understand their skillset, their behaviors, their motivation and stuff like that.

Ranjiva Prasad (12:01.038)
Mmm. Mmm.

Ranjiva Prasad (12:22.51)
Mm, yeah.

Maulik Sailor (12:23.268)
And our platform basically crunch all this information at the team level and give the manager a view on how that team is working together. You know, what are the collective skills they bring together? What are the different behaviors they have together? And we, to back this up, we basically ran a survey with like, you know, almost 100 plus engineering managers that we knew of. And you know, surprisingly, about 90, more than 90 % of the managers,

Ranjiva Prasad (12:34.254)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maulik Sailor (12:52.644)
didn't have a clue on how the teams were structured. Most of them came back with like a very generic answer that, okay, we know who is performing the best, we know who is performing the worst, but we don't know anything else more than that on the individual, like a person to person dynamics, individual motivations and stuff like that. Would that surprise to you? How would you frame this in your experience?

Ranjiva Prasad (13:21.134)
Yeah, because, look.

You want to send something to another planet, right? Let's talk about something like that and you're going to spend, I don't know, X billions on doing that, right? I come from the aerospace industry. We talk about the right stuff, right? Because the decisions you make, when I was studying, I kind of like, there was an incident that something flew past my head at about, I don't know, how many hundreds of miles an hour, right? We were machining something.

someone hadn't followed the process. Actually, I was very close to not being here today. Right? So that industry has learnt really through people and the loss of people actually. Because, you know, that it is about your motivations, it is about your behaviour at that moment, at that critical moment. So, you know, if you have an operational system, let's bring it back, right?

And you have this major outage. And I'm just talking hypothetically. This is not about anything that is real. At that 2 a moment, who do you want on your team? And actually we had that in my last company, we had plenty of those 2 a moments. The systems used to go down, the platforms that I used to work with moved, I don't know, hundreds of millions of messages a day.

And you can imagine it's a queuing system, right? And queues get backed up. And then the problem is when queues get backed up, they're persistent, you're hitting the disk, the disk going around like crazy on the servers, the CPU is going like crazy, the log is jammed up. How do you free it? And often for some crazy reason, it used to happen at Friday, no, Saturday 2 a on a bank holiday. In that moment, I was able to call people in.

Ranjiva Prasad (15:22.51)
Because those people cared about the company, right? So, if you see engineering as this mechanical thing, go build some stuff, submit some code, do a pull request, like all of that, blah, blah, blah, blah, sorry. That's not how you build world leading stuff. If you see it as an organic process where people are coming together, and I did this on my MBA.

Software engineering is just a knowledge management problem. I wrote a paper on that. So it's about people coming together and interacting and figuring out what motivates you, what motivates you. And do we share the same goal? And more importantly, do you want me to have that goal? Do I want you to have that goal more than me? When you do that, you build a world -class team that can do anything from launching a spacecraft to

completely ripping out an unreliable messaging platform and replacing with that something that nobody ever needs to look at for four or five years. It comes from the team, it's not the tech.

Maulik Sailor (16:33.7)
So in your opinion, what makes a good team? And given our background, let's focus on the engineering team. What makes a good engineering team?

Ranjiva Prasad (16:44.334)
You know, in the startup, right? Here's the thing, in the startup, so, and it's applicable to any organization like the one I'm working for at the moment, right? But here's the thing, in the startup, it was interesting. The guys in the engineering team, and I was an engineering manager, right? They cared as much. There was none of this business, I'm business, you're technology, let's go ask the business. Forget that, we are the business. Hey.

There's only 200 of us or even less of us. We got to make money, right? I care about the business. I care about my clients, right? I'm always focused on the business outcome. Yeah, my role, I see my role. It's not to sell. My role is to run the technology to the best ability and choose those tools that deliver the business outcome. And that's not always the latest and greatest and the

Coolest or whatever it is, right? Hey, let's go and invest like I don't know whatever in this tool That's not a startup culture. That's not a startup culture that wins a startup culture that wins and an engineer that wins It's basically going what am I trying to achieve for my customer for my client because that's how I get paid that's That's a proper engineering culture. And if you go into aerospace companies, and I'm not gonna work

Talk about one at the moment, big one. Everybody knows who they are, right? That's what's being leveled at them. That's what's being leveled at them. Where did that culture go, guys?

Because they were. They were right there. They had that culture. Where has that culture gone from that part of the world? That's the thing. Go to SpaceX and they're going to speculate on what I've seen. That's the culture. That's the culture to fail, the culture to take risks because we're focused on the mission and the outcome, not on the tools. Now that's probably really unusual for your listeners to hear.

Maulik Sailor (18:48.58)
Yeah, makes sense. I want to move on a little bit from more from the employer point of view to more on the talent point of view. Recently, we've been hearing a lot about a lot of different AI based tools to do X, Y, Z. You have tools to get a lot of stuff done automatically, probably in some cases better than what humans can do.

Ranjiva Prasad (18:53.198)
Mm.

Mm.

Ranjiva Prasad (18:59.63)
Mmm.

Ranjiva Prasad (19:18.67)
Yep. Yep.

Maulik Sailor (19:18.852)
Now that is posing a real problem for new graduates, and especially with this remote working as well. So when new graduates are coming out, first of all, they don't really know where to get started. Most of them don't go to the office or even when they go in the office, they don't have any other colleagues to learn from. They don't know how to build up their skills.

Ranjiva Prasad (19:42.67)
Hmm.

Maulik Sailor (19:47.524)
Where to focus more, what are the next trends going to be when it comes to workplace environment? What would you say to them? Somebody who has been in this space for a while and I still believe that you are quite hands -on when it comes to leading and mentoring your team. What would you recommend to young folks?

Ranjiva Prasad (19:49.902)
Mmm. Mmm.

Ranjiva Prasad (20:10.67)
I'm already kind of recommending this. So one, I'm going to state this. I think this is a temporary problem. I think the graduates who are coming out now are in kind of a little bit of a difficult situation. Because if I see what's going on in the schools, for example, with my daughter, they have now Gen. AI on their curriculum from like year four, year five. This is happening, right? They have a fully digital AI curriculum.

So these guys, my daughter is gonna come out and know this stuff inside out, right? And know where she can play in this world, right? She's gonna get educated in that way. So I think it's a temporary problem. So the graduates coming out now, that's a challenging situation for them. But it goes back to what I've just said. If your job is simply,

On my teams, on my engineering teams, if your job was just to code, sorry, that's not really valuable to me. But if your job is to problem solve, if your job is to engage with a wider business, with a wider client, if your job is to be a proper builder, if you're a builder, you don't care. If I'm a builder, right?

If I can get a mini excavator into the back of my garden, I'm going to get a mini excavator into the back of my garden because it's going to allow me to get to where I want to go much more quickly. Sorry. But if I'm the guy who's got a spade and just wants to dig holes, I've got a problem. I've got a real problem because I'm going to bring a mini excavator in to my garden. Right. This is my point is.

Don't just focus on that basic. What's elevated me in my career, I often think like, why have I had this career that I've had? It's like so many things going on, right? Because I just have this curiosity to follow, follow, follow, and almost follow the money, follow the revenue, follow the outcome, but still know my place in that. I'm not a great salesperson. I'm never going to do that. I'm a builder.

Ranjiva Prasad (22:29.23)
But I'm a builder who understands the commercial environment, my clients, what we're trying to do, and more than that, the ecosystem. Where are we going? So I look at a tool like that and I go, brilliant, that's like an excavator. Or I got a cement mixer. Brilliant, I don't have to shovel this stuff in a wheelbarrow anymore. That's what a graduate should be doing. And when I started my career, that's what I was taught.

is you've got to focus on the client, you've got to focus on where the money is. That's a builder culture, right? And then I'm just getting way more powerful tools to be able to do that. Brilliant. That's what I need.

Maulik Sailor (23:13.252)
That's pretty insightful. What's next for you? Outside your day -to -day job, what are the other things that you're excited and passionate about?

Ranjiva Prasad (23:27.63)
So I am passionate about a few things. I'm currently doing a, I'm studying for my CSSP. I'm excited by, we just made an announcement as these are yesterday on a few things. So I'm into those topics, particularly identity. But.

Through identity, I started thinking about the cloud and the edge of the cloud and where we store data. So I've always dialed into cyber security in my career. So one of the things I'm doing, except myself, is I'm going to do my cloud certified security professional exam. So I still have the curiosity to study for that. And partly because I go, I know quite a lot of it. I should just formalize that. So that's one thing. I'm.

I'm kind of looking at, right, just a little bit of study, but here's the thing. I also did a master's in sustainability. That's what I mean. I've had this crazy career. Because I've not just built software, I've designed wind turbines, right? And I put solar farms in orphanages in India. I've done so many things. Because I just follow my passions and my curiosity, and I just keep going and I keep just like, yeah.

Maulik Sailor (24:29.7)
I'm sorry.

Ranjiva Prasad (24:46.702)
Let's try that. Let's do that. let's try. that's interesting as well. let's do that as well. So the intersection of sustainability and digital technology is massively intriguing to me. It's massively transformational, right? You're already seeing it. So today in the UK, you can buy a water heater, a water tank, storage tank. You know what I mean. A lot of people have them in their houses, right?

That thing is connected to the network, to the grid, and it's getting signals from the grid on when the grid is going, hey, I've got too much wind, I've got too much solar. Hey, I'm giving this power away, who wants it? And my water tank will go, I want it. Because it's going to heat up water, it's got capacity. Or you have a battery that charges at night. Hey, the grid, I've got, it's really windy at night. I've got free power, take it on.

Right. So this is intersection between the digital and the physical, which is super hard from smart, smart grids from when your car charges, when your car will eventually your EV will pump back power into your house. Right. The F -150 Ford is already doing that in the U .S. It's like amazing. You can be out in the middle of nowhere. These things are big. You can have a power car. You don't care.

because your car is powering your home. But is intelligence, intelligence in all of that. And you know, that naturally starts to segue into the topic of AI. Can AI, can we understand those signals? Can AI then kind of go, hey, you should be buying washing machine, come on. No, washing machine don't start. this, can it be this intelligence that just starts to control?

when we consume or things consume power. Now that's what I'm interested in. And also on the back of that, if I generate power like I do in India in an orphanage, right? Well, I'm saving carbon CO2. So the thing is, right? Okay, you guys, the model is you guys generate electricity. We put solar farms in all of these places from village schools, orphanages, whatever they are, right? Doesn't that?

Ranjiva Prasad (27:14.382)
You guys, the deal is you guys, I'll pay for it. You guys keep the electricity. I take the carbon credits and I'm going to put those onto a carbon market. So these are things I like to explore, but it's that there's an intersection between a physical, the physical and the digital and AI. Those three things are converging. And if any of your listeners want to know where to go in their career, you don't want to really look too much further than those things.

Maulik Sailor (27:38.884)
That's pretty good. I want to build more on that. What are a few other areas that you think are very interesting in Neo Future?

Ranjiva Prasad (27:43.182)
Mm.

Ranjiva Prasad (27:51.01)
So, all right, we talk about this at Visa. I'm not going to mention specifics, I can't, but I'm going to talk about, you know, I'm an architect, that's my role, right? I'm a builder. I talk about principles, I talk about concepts. What are the irreversible trends? What are the irreversible trends, right? And that's what you've got to figure out.

For me, what are the irreversible trends? Digital government, what we see in Ukraine, what we see in a country that is having tremendous challenges at the moment, and we know why, right? They're digitizing government, unbelievable set of experiences they're creating. Okay, so that's kind of one, we are inherently moving into a less stable world, right? But our governments are being asked to do even more with less, right?

Think about India. How do you deliver services to 1 .4 billion people across that country? And nobody will know how vast it is until you try and actually sell things village by village, which is one of the company, a relative of mine that I was supporting, he was doing that. You don't realize how big that country is until you go village by village. Right? So digital delivery of government services is huge, right? And everything that goes with it.

Now let's talk about climate change. Climate change is going to create different outcomes for different people. Some opportunities, many, many threats. So this is what I'm saying is those are the problems you need to go after. You've got to start with the problem, right? Rather than the tech. And then you've got to go, where can AI help in that, right? Because I know what AI can do. Where does it help? What can it do?

What about an identity? What about that? What about the sustainable development goals? How can we help with that? It's a different kind of way of thinking. It's an outside in model, right? Instead of an inside out where we start with the technology and go, let's try and do that. Well, most of the time it doesn't work because you haven't really understood the problem. So I don't know if I answered the question, but I think that's the right answer to it.

Maulik Sailor (30:14.724)
Okay, you know, it makes sense. You know, you pick what you understand what trends are happening. You understand, you know, what are the set of play for different technologies, you know, and try to figure out an opportunity or the problem area and then try to applying the next of the technology to solve that problem. So totally makes sense, right? Sorry. Look, we are like it almost running out of time here.

And so before we end this recording, I still want to get a few more insights from you. And this is something that we ask all of our guests who attend our podcast. Sorry, I'm just coughing right now. Sorry for that. So we want to know, like, any one person, living or dead, that you're most...

you're not impressed by or influenced by, sorry, in your life.

Ranjiva Prasad (31:18.446)
Interesting question. I'm going to go Nelson Mandela and I'm going to tell you why if you want to know.

You know, at Visa, our mission is to uplift everyone everywhere. That is the front and central. If I don't come into Visa every day, or if I'm coming into my home office or wherever into the building, right, in Paddington in this case, if I don't come in with what is my purpose every single day, I'm going to get blown off course, right, because there's 101 things kind of happening.

So if you think about Nelson Mandela and what happened to him, what he was fighting for and then the imprisonment and then to walk out of that and uplift and unite a nation and move them in a particular direction and create this rainbow nation. That's what inspires me and that's the kind of change I want to make. That's what I've been trying to do my whole career is to uplift everyone everywhere and he is a perfect example of that.

Maulik Sailor (32:29.316)
Okay, wonderful, wonderful. Who do you suggest we invite as one of our guests on the podcast? Can be anybody, right? Can be completely random person, can be somebody that we don't know. But you know, who do you think we should invite?

Ranjiva Prasad (32:48.59)
So I did look at the list of the common connections you and I had, but I don't think I'm going to name... I'm not going to name names. I'm...

Ranjiva Prasad (33:03.406)
I'm it's difficult. I mean, I think. You know, this is interesting to me, you know, I, you know, when I saw some of the questions and, you know, in preparation, I went. You know, what I what I do at Visa is kind of a cross between a CTO and a CTO. So we're seeing that role more and more right. So that's that's a path for engineering leaders to move to. That's what I mean by elevating up understanding the commercial.

I see that in my network increasingly that these roles in certain sizes of organization kind of cross over the technology and the product roles. They're not separate. They're the same because products are now technology, right? So you might want to pick on one of them. They might be a Chief Digital Officer, but they may be playing two hats, a CTO, CPO. That's who I would invite.

And you might get a completely different perspective to me, but I think that'd be great.

Maulik Sailor (34:03.14)
Okay, cool. We'll try. We'll try. You know, you'll be surprised. We've been asked to invite Elon Musk a few times.

Ranjiva Prasad (34:08.622)
You know what, I could say that, right? But I thought I'd... Yeah, why not invite Elon Musk? You know, there's obviously in the AI world, Yan LeCun. I like him very much. Andrew Nug. He's good as well. Like some of these guys, right? There's a great book, but probably a little bit... Well, maybe you can do that, but...

I'm going to give you someone who's a CTO, CPO. I think that's a super interesting intersection of role and they can give you a real, they can give you a listeners a really good like, how did it get to that place?

Maulik Sailor (34:50.244)
Yeah, I think that's an interesting one. I would agree to that because, you know, I've been a CPO a couple of times for a few startups and I have always, like, you know, I never treat product and technology different. I always like get them to work together. I mean, any startup I work with, we never had a CTO. I was like a product and tech guy who would not only decide on the product, but will also decide on how to build that product. You know, what frameworks to use, you know, what architecture to go for and so on.

So yeah, I would love to do that. You know what? Now you've got me thinking. I think I'll have to look through my LinkedIn and find a relevant person for the next podcast. So cool. You know, Ranjeeva, I know we've been talking for a while. Some great insight, I must say, you know, in how to go about thinking about a problem, how to go thinking about your own career.

and the future, where the opportunities lie. So I think great insight from you today. And thanks a lot for making time to come on our podcast. And I'm really happy to connect with you after a long time. I'm really pleased to having spoken to you for now. Right? Cool. Thank you, Ranjeeva. And all the very best with what you do. Right? Good. Thank you.

Ranjiva Prasad (36:09.87)
Thank you, Marlick. Great. Thanks for having me on.

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